Welcome to The Adaptive Mindset. I'm Bret Gallant, cybersecurity thought leader and founder of Adaptive Office Solutions. Here, we don't just talk tech. We unlock the strategies, stories, and mindset shifts you need to stay secure, lead boldly, and thrive in a digital world. Let's get started. Welcome back to The Adaptive Mindset. So one of the things I've learned is that some of the hardest conflicts in our lives aren't really about the thing. We're arguing about— sometimes there's something underneath it. Expectations, loyalty, family, culture, the way we grew up. And nowhere can these pressures become more personal than inside a marriage. My guest today is Pesa. Pesa is an author and a co-founder of Live Your Best Marriage, where he helps cross-cultural Christian couples build what he calls a united front through in-law pressure, loyalty conflicts, and culture clashes. His work is shaped by his own cross-cultural marriage with his wife Whitney, and by years of helping couples recognize when outside pressure has quietly started turning them against each other. What I really want to explore today is not just marriage. I want to talk about identity, boundaries, family loyalty, communications, faith, and how we stop fighting the person beside us when the real problem may actually be coming from somewhere else. Pesa, welcome. Yes. Welcome to The Adaptive Mindset. Thank you very much, Brett. I'm so happy to be here today. Yes, it's— this is going to be great. So before we dig into the frameworks and advice, I always like to understand the person behind the work. So, Pesa, tell me, how did you get into this? Yes, I'm Pesa. Originally, I'm from Kenya. And my wife Whitney is from America. And that's— when we got married, everything was great because we knew as long as we love each other, there won't be any problems because we believe love will solve all the problems from communication, misunderstanding, in-law issues, any pressure, as long as we love each other. that's gonna take care of that. But I found out the hard way that sometimes when you're coming from 2 different cultures, you're coming with 2 different rule books, 2 different common sense. I, I put that in quotation, common sense, because what I believed was common sense, to her it was like, what are you talking about? It's way out there. And like, and I through this whole thing, I believed like, um, marriage is one of the most, um, important things that you will need to use. It's basically an adaptive system where you're constantly changing, learning a new way of doing things, uh, getting rid of all the past way of how you used to do it or how you are taught as a kid to do things and adapting, learning new ways. And so there's a constant feedback, but we had to learn that the hard way, and I'll get into it later. Yes. Okay, awesome. Well, I think, I think a lot of what you just said not only shows up in cross-cultural relationships, it shows up in all relationships. You know, our assumptions from childhood, you know, Loyalty, you know, or conflict styles or faith. So, and what we think marriage should look like. Yeah. And so when you and Whitney first encountered some of those differences, did you recognize them first as cultural differences? Or did they just initially just feel like you're wrong and I'm right? Yes, that's a good question. Because for For us, we thought, um, we— it took us a long time, literally close to 20 years, to really appreciate that this is culture. Most of the time we just thought it's just marriage problems. Yeah. Uh, like for example, when we were newlyweds and our first— we had just gotten our first daughter, Then when it came to naming the baby, at that time we had a big conflict. And most people will say, okay, big deal, it's every— a lot of couples will have problems when it's time to name a baby. And for us, for her, she believed that she is the mom, she had the baby, so she has the right to name, to pick the names. Great. But on my end, I came from a tradition where we need to name the children after grandparents so that in a way we are basically keeping the grandparents alive, like we're just having their names in the family. Yes. So that was a tradition that I believed that that is the right thing to do. We are arguing here, and it took me many years to realize actually what we were— what I was doing is I just wanted my culture to be represented in the marriage. So we, we fought. My side of the family was so adamant that we need to name the baby my grandma's name, and she was very adamant that she's gonna pick all the names. Eventually, we were able to come up with a compromise. Yeah. And she chose the first name. We chose the second name. And then obviously the last name was our family name. But that little— that argument in the beginning, we really— we just thought about it as an argument, just a regular argument when it's time to pick up a name. Later on, as we were thinking about it, is that's when I started realizing, like, hold on, the reason why it was so important for me to have the baby named after my grandmother is I felt like our culture was gonna be forgotten in our marriage. Like, basically she was dominating everything and I was being pushed out culturally. We did not even appreciate that that was happening. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You know, sometimes we have to actually ask ourselves, do I actually believe this or did I inherit it? You know, so yeah. Yeah. I think like a lot of times these beliefs are carried around, carried around, but they're sometimes they aren't things that we consciously choose. So no, no, it's just, um, it has been implanted in you for so long that you don't even think it's there. It's, it's just there. It just is. Yeah. Yeah. So, so, Pesa, you use, um, you use the phrase united front. Yes. What does that actually mean? Like, because when somebody hears— yeah. Go ahead. Sorry. So it took us a long time to get this concept of this framework of the united front because there was a lot of pressure from my side of the family, from her side of the family. And we didn't appreciate that we were fighting against each other all the time and we were not united. So when we finally— when we are able to come up with this concept of united front, which just means that we will be facing each other and working together as a team instead of fighting each other all the time. And what this means is practically means we will hold back, have a conversation behind closed doors on what, especially when it comes to big decisions, we will come have the conversation, decide first, before going out, uh, and engaging in-laws or engage— even engaging our kids. And this is something like, children are very, you know, uh, intuitive when they are able to pick up when mom and dad are not on the same page. And for example, this will— Yeah. Used to happen when they would come to me. No, they will always go to mom to ask for something because they know If they come to me, it will be a no. So yeah, they know it's gonna be a no. Karen is relating to this right now. Yes, yes, they know it. So with me, it's a no. With mom, it's a yes. The same thing. So they are able to pick up that mom and dad are not on the same page. We need to choose which one to talk to and get our way. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And, and with the kids, it can be funny because we can just see how they're able to appreciate what's going on in the home and pick up all these cues. But now when it comes to in-laws, it can be very intense because, like, for example, in one time in my case, my wife was talking to my mom and my mom was like, okay, that's fine, but I'll wait for my son. And then I'm going to wait for my son and then he's going to tell me. He's really going to tell me what I want to hear. And she knew that me and her and my wife were not on the same page. She just knew, okay, she can tell me whatever she wants to tell me, but my son will give me the answer that I want. Yeah. Yeah. And I didn't even know that that meant that she was able to pick that although we are married, we don't agree on a lot of things. Yes. Who does? Yeah. Yes. Yes. How— so how have you navigated around that specifically, like, to be united, like, in situations like that? Like, like, what, what, what are some action items that couples can do or that you've, that you've seen people do? Yeah. So, so for example, when, um, when you're dealing with in-laws, it's always important first to, uh, again, have the conversation before, know exactly. Let's say if it's— let's say we, we are dealing with my wife's family, and maybe every time the kids go to, for example, the in-laws, there's something going on there that we don't appreciate. Let's, for example, maybe Um, some TV shows that we don't appreciate. That can be a very simple thing but can also bring a lot of confusion because my wife might be like, yeah, yes, I understand what you mean, but I don't, I don't want to face my mom and tell her like we don't, we don't appreciate that, those TV shows. So it's very important that it doesn't matter it's very important that we bring up the conversation. Like, we should be on the same page. Now, we also say this, that, um, the, the child— like, the persons whose family is involved. So let's say if it's my side of the family, I should be the one to go and deal with that case. We agree, and then I go and break the news because we found out that if I send her to my side of the family to break the news, she might be seen as an outsider coming to tell them what to do. Yeah, yeah. Yes. And it might literally lead to so many problems because now they will— they might even gang up against us saying, who are you coming to tell us what to do? But If it's my— if it's me going and talking to them, we might really deal with it, but we can't handle the situation the same way on her side of the family. She should not put me on them in the middle to go and deal with it. Now, yeah, there are some situations that we have to do it together and sit. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So I can like, even if I'm not talking, I'm there to back her up. But that shows that we are united. That shows that we, we are united. And when it comes to boundaries, it can be really hard for sometimes because, um, making sure that, um, making sure that you are able to handle that boundary. What do I mean? Um, we've dealt with a lot of couples who maybe they are taking a lot of financial help from their in-laws. There's a lot of handouts, financial handouts coming from their in-laws. And then now they want to set a boundary because they don't want— they don't appreciate that the father-in-law has been telling them, uh, whatever, what to do. So like, no, he, he can't tell me what to do. Yeah, yeah. Yes. But if you have been accepting a lot of financial handouts from them, it might be very hard to say no to them now giving you financial advice. Yeah. Yes. And that's something that we always say. We are not saying don't accept help. But know that you might, as you're working as a team, you might end up having somebody in the dugout with you giving you advice. Yeah. So just be very careful when you're accepting a lot of financial help because eventually you might, it might be harder to set boundaries. Well, it's interesting. That kind of leads to one of the other questions I have, I had for you. So it's perfect time to ask it. So early warning signs that somebody outside the marriage has started occupying— like, what are the early warning signs that somebody outside the marriage has started occupying too much space inside the marriage? And I'm thinking there's a perfect example. So like, yes. So we found out that one, um, with the couples we work with One of the— if decisions are being made in the family, like in the— like in your marriage, and then somebody is already— like one of you is going and speaking to the— maybe the mom or the dad, like going back and speaking to the— to their parents just to get approval. Yeah. for some of these decisions. Like, you make a decision in the home and then they go and bounce it off with their mom or bounce it off with their dad. Sometimes if it happens so much, it makes it that the, the decision that you are getting in the home might not be— like somebody else is making decisions in your marriage without even, um, you knowing. And this happens a lot, especially if there's a family uh, group chat. So you are, you are talking, and then a few minutes later somebody asks the questions in the group chat, but you are— you might not be in the group. But because it's your in-laws' family group chat, they are talking in there about what is happening in your home at the same time. So you don't know what the decisions they are making or what advice they are giving your spouse. But that advice will be the advice that's gonna affect you. Yeah. So it's very important to— we are not against, um, speaking to family, but we call it, um, you need to transfer loyalty from your family of origin, which is saying I'm loyal to my family, to my new family that I'm building. versus my family of origin, because if you don't transfer that loyalty, you'll be having a lot of problems. Yeah, it's— I've heard somebody else say that to me in my life. There was a moment— I won't go into the detail, but basically, you know, when you leave your— when you get into a marriage, there's the family of origin, and then you make your new family, and that becomes your priority. So that comes first. Yeah. There's— you can, you can, you know, you obviously have your family of origin and, and there's value there, but there's also the priority is that new family, that, that family where— what you're building. Yeah. So when, when you start having that outside communication, there's a good chance, like what you're saying, of having divisiveness and And conflict and then whatever else comes with that. So it's another communication outside that's taking too much space and somebody's feeling left out. There's perspectives that— and someone, actually my father said this, it's kind of the same thing. When you point your fingers, there's 3 fingers pointing back. Yep. So there's, there's my— like, there's my version, my truth. Okay, there's your truth. Yes. In the middle, there is the entire truth. Yep. You know, like, because we all have different perspectives. Yes. Different viewpoints. And like you said at the beginning, from the cultural viewpoint, different perceptions, different ways that things happen in your family. So it's a different viewpoint. Yeah. Doesn't mean that person's wrong. Nope. It just means that's how they value it. That's how they see it. That's their mindset. And this is a perfect time to take that, this question, the mindset going into marriage. How, like, how can people adapt their mindset in situations like this? And the best takeaway that they can take And, you know, so this— what, what we're talking about is not only about right now. What's really great about this, we're not only talking about marriages in a way, we're talking about all relationships. Like, yes, I, and I, I just kind of— that just kind of hit me right now because it's true, isn't it? Like when you— It is, it is, you know. Yes. And, and I think the mindset that, uh, I had to develop is other than being curious, um, yes, I needed to be curious and also being willing to know that anytime I might be wrong. So yeah, just anytime. Yes, I might be wrong. So I should not be so strongly defending my position while somebody else is also defending her position. I should say, okay, hold on, what— where is she coming from? So being curious to know where she's coming from. Sometimes, most of the time actually, she's right and I'm right, and we can find a middle ground on what to implement. But— And we mean— most of the time we mean well. So She's just seeing it differently. So I think the mindset I need to have that I've— is a lot of curiosity and being willing to, to accept that I might be wrong. Not, not me. Sorry, I had to be a little bit of myself. Um, but that, you know, that takes a lot of courage too, though, to admit that you're wrong. Yes. Like, there's something to dig into for a second. Yeah. What, you know, sometimes we get so far into our belief in being right. Yeah. That we don't come out and at least have the openness or the mindset to admit that we're wrong, or that we may be looking from another— how, like, from a, from the From our own perspective, not seeing the other view. Yes. And man, I'm thinking about something I learned when I was up in Nunavut in the north. You look from— they said when the Inuit were traveling, and I know I'm getting this wrong, but when you look at the Inuit when traveling over the Arctic, they would climb up on the mountain. Okay. And they would look far in the distance to get a bigger view. So how, how do folks navigate when they're so in their own world and they, they think they're right? They don't— like, how, how do people get out of that? Like, or is that just— so, you know, what's the shift? So yeah, we teach, uh, we teach that then we need to remember that to build that friendship. Because sometimes if we have— we are friends, we have that friendship between— because sometimes we are working, taking care of the kids, worrying about family, kids, just all these obligations of living together, paying bills. So there's that part that has to happen. And then on the other side, we are in the marriage, we are trying to be lovers and trying to be intimate about it. Do be fulfilled. But if we forget that whatever is holding these 2 things is the fact that we are friends— we are friends— we might lose each. We might lose, or we might just be stuck on one end where we are just, just doing the chores of life, the obligations of life. We are just taking care of business, but we are not intimate, or we don't care about each other. So having that friendship, um, I always believe, like, if you're friends, you're more likely to give your spouse the benefit of doubt. But if you're not friendly with her or him, you are more likely to see, you know what, she said that, I need to find a comeback, or because I just, I don't give her the benefit of doubt. So I think in every season of life, if we can find a way to be friends, That friendship should always be there in the middle. We can go through a lot, a lot of hard things in life, but still have a great marriage. Yeah, that's— I'm glad you shared that. That's beautiful. And I think, I think, I think the world marriages— I'm just judging, and this is my own viewpoint, but I think It'd be a happier place if we all remembered that. Yeah. Yeah. Um, hey, um, so let's, let's dig into loyalty for a little bit. So most people were someone's son, daughter, brother, sister, or part of a family system. Yes. Long before they became somebody's husband or wife. Then boom, marriage comes. Yep. Uh, and we, we dug into this a little bit, um, you know, a hierarchy of loyalty. We talked about how, how it had to change, but for Christians in particular, there's also this idea of honoring your mother or father. So when does honor end and unhealthy obligation begin? Thank you. So, you're right. In Christians, we are taught that the two of us became one, and we had to leave and cleave, and then the two became one, and we created a new family unit. Yes. But at the same time, we are also told to honor our parents so that we can honor and respect them so we can live a long life. So, we have two uh, issues here that I feel like sometimes can be very conflicting to some people. So some people will be like, you know, the best thing I need to do is just remember that I left, leave, left and cleaved and created my own. The two of us became one. And just ignore this honor my parents because it can bring a lot of conflicts. But I feel like if you can be able to balance the two you are showing a lot of growth. Um, and some of it is— this is not saying that you are not setting boundaries, because it's actually gonna help you if— because if you are leaving and cleaving, you are basically— you have transferred loyalty from your family of origin to this new family that you are building here. But at the same time, that does not mean that you are not gonna honor the people who raised you and helped you to be where you are at the moment. Don't forget that. And balancing the two is like, for example, when you are setting boundaries, you might be setting boundaries to make it clear that maybe there's something that you don't approve of what they are doing, but you are setting a boundary. But at the same time, you are doing it with a lot of respect, and you actually are seeing where they are coming from. You literally see their point of view, but you are just not going to accept what they are doing. So, for example, let's say something like smoking. Maybe you and husband and wife might be like, okay, we don't want the kids to go through smoke, to be in a house where people are smoking inside. That's an easy one. But, but they might. But They might, the parents might say, this is my house. I raised you. I was smoking when you were a baby and I'm gonna continue smoking. This is my house. You cannot tell me what to do. So with a lot of respect, you can see where they come from because maybe a long time ago smoking was so normal that now they're addicted to smoking from something that they literally started smoking many years ago when it was just okay to smoke. But now there's an issue of secondhand smoke and you don't wanna. uh, put the little kids through secondhand smoke. So you can say, okay, that's fine. We can either not bring the kids, but we are still having a— we are still, we are still, uh, respecting your decision, but we are not just going to bring the kids. Or we can find another situation where you can still see the kids, maybe do it over Zoom, and then the kids are not going to have the secondhand smoke. So things— you are just being very creative, but at the same time, you are still setting the boundary. Now, it takes a lot of patience and creativity and also knowing that, okay, there are some things we can— there are some things we can be creative and, and, uh, find ways to solve. But sometimes you might find you are dealing with a parent or an in-law who are not— they, they don't want to to come meet you in the middle somewhere. Maybe they are very manipulative. Maybe whatever you come— whatever decision you come up with, they always find a way to turn it that maybe you are mean to them, or just going and telling all the other family members how mean you are to them, whatever. So in that time, you might be forced to say, okay, maybe I need to limit the amount of time I'm gonna be spending with you, but no hard feelings. I know maybe you need some mental health help, but I'm not gonna spend time there in the home. But you're not fighting them, you just recognize that maybe they need more help. Maybe they are more— they're manipulating. Maybe there's manipulation going on and you don't want to go through that. So there's no one answer, but I think if you are coming from the point of I need to honor them. They might have made mistakes when I was a kid, but I'm just going to honor their contribution. They made me who I am. But at the same time, sometimes I might not want that toxic influence that they might have to affect the next generation. So it's just— it can be very complicated, but it's possible. Yeah. Yeah, I know. I, I was thinking a little bit about that while you were speaking and like my own journey. I come from, I come from dysfunction. Mm-hmm. My mother and father were divorced. I have my own journey. I chose to go leave my mother and go live with my father. And I brought a different perspective into marriage. I didn't know what a good marriage looked like. Yes. I didn't. And married my beautiful wife. And I'm in this wonderful marriage. And I'm pivoting here right now because I don't want to miss this right now because I, I feel like this is Something I mean to talk about, and perhaps somebody can identify with this. But I don't believe that it always goes right. And and so what I'm what I'm getting at is I'm in this. You know, I came from divorced family, a lot of trauma and conflict. You know, my parents. And I love both my parents. They're both deceased now, and I just lost my mom. Oh, sorry to hear that. Yeah. And, you know, it's— they both did the best that they could, but they, they had a conflicted relationship even after they were divorced. And they needed to be divorced, hands down. Okay. Yes. But how do people that come from that trauma, that dysfunction where the marriage, they don't have that definition of a good marriage, like, how do they get to the point where I am? And I'm, I know I'm not anybody special. Well, I am special. I am blessed. And I know that. Yes. But what do people do to be successful? I know I've been doing it and I'm thankful and I'm blessed. Yes. But there's somebody out there right now that's listening, that's saying, I came from a divorced family dysfunction. What are some steps that they can take to be— to do— to get to a point where I can literally say to you that I I'm freaking happy. And when you said friendship with, with your wife and, you know, with the spouses, yeah, my wife is my best friend. Good, good. How, how can we help people right now, Pesa? So, and that's a really hard, hard question, but at the same time, it's possible because it has been done by a lot of people. And, um, if somebody is listening to us right now, most likely they want a solution. They, they won't be listening to this, uh, conversation if they are not trying to find answers. So they're in the right place to find the answers to get them to having a great marriage. And one, um, we talk about, um, and I'm not a trauma counselor or anything like that. Bigger picture, you know what I mean? You know, like, there's, there's some foundations to be successful. Yeah. But one thing that, um, we, we talk about forgiveness, okay? Uh, there's the, okay, you need to forgive, you need to forgive. And there's many versions of that. When we talk about forgiveness, there's many ways you can look at it. And one way that I like to think about it, because I use it every day in my life, is, okay, I'm forgiving, and I'm— there's a story I'm telling myself. The story I'm telling myself is I am a victim of that person. Now, yeah, this can get really crazy because some people say, yes, I'm a victim because I went through so much with them. Yes, I agree with that. I totally agree. But when we are having this conversation, it's like there's a story you tell yourself that even 10 years ago, 50 years ago, whatever, that person did something to me. Yeah. And the more you tell yourself that, you— it's like, number one, you are their victim. So in your mind, you are their victim and you are connected to them. There's always that connection. Because it's in your mind. You're just, oh, you, you are replaying it. So they will say, some people will say just, um, forgive but don't forget. But I say, okay, even when you are forgiving, remember to change the story, to change the story that now you are not a victim of that person. So how does it, like, practically, let's say, Uh, I'm, I'm thinking about it and I can remember maybe my childhood, a lot of people are making fun of my name. That's just how it used to happen because my name where I come from means money. So everywhere I go, there was a money joke. Just, it was just, that's, that's just my, my childhood. It happens anytime. Even like when I just meet somebody from where I come from, they know what my first name means and the jokes start. Okay. Yeah. So I can be a victim of the fact that people make fun of me. Okay. Constantly. It used to be, I used to be very offended by that. Yeah. But when I'm releasing this, I can, as I'm releasing this, I can remember that I am not a victim of these people making fun of me. So I can change the story to be something like, Um, maybe it's funny, or I can change the story to be like, they don't really— they don't appreciate what they're saying. There's so many ways to have these conversations, but that way I'm not always afraid of meeting somebody from my country who's gonna make fun of me. Because it's— it— there was a time that was a fear. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Now, so when it comes to Childhood trauma. It might be a little— you might need— somebody needs to work maybe with a counselor or a therapist. But at the end of the day, at the end of the day, you will have to forgive. And the forgiveness will have to be like, you are not a victim of that mean parent. So you can change the story to say maybe the parent didn't appreciate, the parent was drunk. The parent— you— there's always ways to either change the story, or you can say, I'm glad it happened because now I'm stronger. I'm glad it happened to me because now I can help my sisters or my brothers. There's always something that you can change the story so that eventually you are not going through life feeling that you are less than because of what happened. This evil person did something to you. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Change the story. I think, I think that's part of what I did. I didn't use it to be an excuse. Yeah. Like, maybe sometimes it's a difference or a story we tell ourselves. No, this happened. Yeah. But I choose. Yes. Because of that, I learned that I learned what not to do. I learned to tell a better story. Yeah. And, and you might be doing that without even knowing you are doing that. But some people— there's a lot of information now so you can learn how to intentionally do it. But some people just intuitively know how to change the story. And they move from the city where they were raised and go to a new life, new city, start a new life, have a new identity. And it's like they forget everything and they start all over and they are successful. Well, that's actually what's happening to me right now. I'm rebuilding an identity. Yeah. And I I see it because the old version of me was 349 pounds. Wow. Okay, so there's still mindsets and beliefs from when I was that weight to who I am today. Yes. It's— but it's— but you also have to realize some things were given for a reason, and we don't realize why till later. And so you take that And you realize that, okay, I was given these circumstances for a reason, and it shapes my identity and my mindset for who I am today and what's possible. Yes. And so, like this conversation with you right now, it was needed because it gives me another viewpoint to my marriage. Yeah. But not only does it give me another viewpoint to my marriage, It's given me another mindset and a viewpoint to relationships. Yes, yes. You know, there's, there's, there's so much in here to unpack, you know, like, like, and I'm sure you see it all the time. Yeah, yes, I— we, we see all the time, and that's one of the hardest things, um, you It took me a long time to really appreciate how to frame this whole concept of forgiveness that anybody can use. And also, um, you can literally switch, like forgive and feel like you're free. Like literally you're free. Yes. Yes. Yes. And like letting go. Yeah. You're letting go. Yeah. And you'll be surprised how many stories we frame every day where there's somebody, we are victim of somebody. So I can be talking a story about, let's say, my boss, and I can say, you know what, my boss never responds to— every time I send an email to my boss, my boss, she never sends an email back. So I can frame that, that she's against me. Yeah, maybe she doesn't know. Maybe she's so overwhelmed with her work that she never even, like, gets to, to get to all her emails. That might be a reason, but I can take that story and frame it as I'm a victim of my bosses, my boss, for like sending me, like responding to me. Yeah. Yeah. Or, and then when I realize, like, hold on, I've framed this as I'm a victim of her not responding on time. To, you know what, maybe she's overwhelmed. You know what, maybe I need to call her. Maybe she responds to text messages than email. Yes. Maybe I need to knock on her door. It's trying to control ourselves and beliefs of what is happening. But, there's what we get back to again. There's 3 truths. Yes. There's a truth of what we perceive, what's actually happening, Yes. And what they're dealing with. They could be in the middle of 25 emails and an urgent issue. Yeah. Yeah. No, I live that all the time. So, I know that. So, I look at that and I, yes, okay, someone hasn't answered my email. Well, the emails are where things go to die. So, everybody's inbox is drowning. So, give them a call and check in. Hey, how are you doing? You know? Yes. You know, and there's another thing to do with relationship, an honest conversation in your marriage. How are you doing? Like, like, like a real check-in, your friends, like, like getting back to what you said, how are you really doing? You know, tell me, like, let's talk, like, date your wife, date your husband, you know? Yes. Yeah. Um, you're right. And you find out that if it's a friend, you always are more likely to give them the benefit of doubt, call them, see where they are coming from, just spend more time to figure out what's going on. So if, if it's your friend, you can't even believe that they will be out to get you because they're your friend. Yeah. Yeah, right. We're, uh, we're in it together. Yes. You know, and I, I can't believe— I, I must be really thinking about the north. I, I, my heart is in the north. I love— I've had the fortune to help some northern communities, and there's this phrase that we came up with for a mayor's forum that I was involved with Together we're stronger. Yep. A marriage, when we look at that really, when we're together, we are stronger. But, but we have the mindset that, you know, my view, my view, but, but you come together, we're stronger, we're one, you know, you know. Yes. Um, hey, I wanna, um, I wanna ask you a couple of final mindset questions before we wrap up. I've been really enjoying our conversation. Thank you. Thank you. Me too. Yeah. Um, let's, let's look at these through the lens of mindset. Um, what's one belief about marriage you once held that you've had to change? Um, one belief that, um, nearly cost my marriage and I definitely have to change was I believed that to be a great husband and to be a great father, I needed to provide all the time. So I would be the one who would be working double shifts, afternoon and night, come home in the morning, sleep, go back, and afternoon and night go. So it was this cycle of constantly working because I I had seen it, my dad doing it. I've seen a lot of my uncles doing it. And I knew if you are a good dad, if you are a good husband, you constantly provide. Yeah. So now that I had to put aside, so not only am I providing, but also there's a new mindset I brought in, which is, uh, the being there physically and emotionally for my family. I did not even know about— there's an emotional component of being a dad or being a husband. That emotional concept wasn't there. I had to learn it in my marriage. I was just thinking more about providing financially. So— Oh yeah. Yes. Yeah, I know. I, I get you. I, I was there for a little bit, especially building the business, and even before that. being, um, present and feeling a need to provide and be responsible for everything. I was working 14, 16-hour days. Yep. And burning out and forgetting that I also had to put my own oxygen mask on. You, you know what they say in the airplane? You have to put your own oxygen mask on. But how can you be emotionally present Like you said, in a marriage or a friendship, when you're burning the candle at both ends and you're providing, you, you, you're, you're, you can— like, how can you be truly present and not be there emotionally? You know? I mean, um, it's, it's something that you have to learn. And I think, um, so you— yes, you have to. So you are there physically. So physically I'm there now. I'm not working as much, so I'm physically at home, but am I emotionally present? Am I— is my mind there? And am I giving my family my attention? So am I, as I'm talking to my family, am I just glancing at my phone all the time? Am I having 5 conversations texting back and forth with other people while I'm talking to my daughter? So, yes, being there physically, but not being there, like, um, like not giving them my attention can also be not the right thing. So, yes, oh, I'm just talking to them while I'm just constantly glancing on the TV. They, they know I'm not paying attention. They feel it. They may not intentionally know, but they know it because they're not getting the best of you. Yep. Yes. Yeah. So that's very important. So for example, when I'm— I do a podcast and then I go downstairs, I need to be present, like there, not going downstairs and I'm just thinking about what is going on at work. I need to be present, go downstairs, become the dad. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, become the dad. Yeah. The, the, the podcast guest or the business owner. I don't— have you ever heard of Jim Rohn? Yes, yes. Okay. Do you remember ever hearing him say, when you work, work, when you play, play, don't mix the two? Yep. And that's great advice before Yes. Yes. Because we have these phones. Yep. And I— okay, I'm not gonna pretend I do this all the time, but I try to do this and I aim to do this. When my daughter or my children start speaking to me and I have the phone in front of me, I put— I take the phone and I put it down face down. I actually had to do that While speaking with you. Good. Because I had the phone on me. Yes. Yeah, I had it facing me and, you know, you get the pop-up. So I took the phone and I put it face down on my desk so I didn't have the distraction. Because what happened, it pulls you out and then you're not emotionally there. There you go. You know? Yep, there you go. And that, I think it's gonna be harder especially for in the future, because most kids now are being raised with a tablet. Yeah, so they always have a tablet. So 20 years later, I don't know how they would be, uh, connecting, uh, like, like giving attention to somebody else while they've been raised to just look at like their, their tablet. You know something, Pesa? I, I have hope for that too, though. I went for a hike with a friend of mine, and we were hiking, and he inspired me. But he was telling me about how he limits his social media time. He has an app that he's only allowed to use it for 15 minutes. He's about the same age as me. Okay. You know who gave him that app and the advice? His children. Oh. Young adults. So I have hope. Yes. I have hope. High hopes. Yes. Um, what's— so I, I want to ask you this, um, because this is something that we— I'd like to ask you before, um, actually, no, we, we're— I'm gonna go here and then we got— we do have to wrap up because, yeah, this is— we could go on forever, you and I. Um, okay, if one spouse is listening to this episode and thinking This is my marriage. My spouse and I keep turning against each other whenever our families get involved. What's the first conversation they should have tonight? This— let's leave our audience with something and make some— So the first conversation they should have tonight, I think, yeah, is If they are listening to this and they are still somewhat civil. Yes. They need to remind each other how life used to be, especially when they were dating or when they were getting ready to get married. Because for most people, that time is usually the best time. because they were so excited. They are looking forward. They have so many great stories from that time. I mean, it's just greatness. They were— if they were high school sweethearts, even if they met after their first marriage or second marriage, whatever, but there is a time they were so excited that they are gonna get married. If they, if they can go back and get that positive emotions back into their marriage, marriage. Look at the pictures you guys took many years ago. Maybe you are— you went on a vacation before you got married, whatever. But look at— get yourself back to that state. Now it's easy to look at your spouse and say, you know what, she's the same lady. Things have changed, but we can try to go back to that, get that energy back. I know life has changed. Maybe you guys gone through a lot of things, ups and downs, but can we get back to that excitement that we had? And if you remember that time, there was a lot of pursuing each other, calling, text message, sending letters. There was just a lot of pursuit. You are pursuing, you are happy, you are looking at each other, and you can't even wait to see each other later. So yeah, that excitement. Yeah, yeah, that excitement. But it can be brought back If you get yourself back to that state. Yes, because you can go back to that memory, that moment. Yeah, I'm gonna say something out loud. My wife, she listened to this, she would shoot me. But what you're saying, Pesa, is I should show my wife the picture that I took of her in front of a giant potato that she didn't want to be in front of. Now, if if she likes that picture, if it's gonna bring a lot of happy memories. Oh, she'll give me— she'll say, I'm never taking a picture in front of a giant potato again. I said, come on, dear, I know you want to do it, you know. But if you can have some laughter and have that memory and share, yeah, that's spot on. And then you can even frame it in such a way that, do you remember the time we went to the state fair or whatever? where you took that picture and then you walk her through them, like all the things you saw, and then now you show the picture. So it's like you're bringing her back to that excitement that she had, like those great memories. Yeah. And I think that's true in life because we all have these stories and, and we all have stories of value. And when you share that story with your spouse and bring them back to that moment, you relive that moment. Yes. And then you can find that spark. So yeah, and now from that point, it's easy to slowly by slowly— maybe you, you are calling her when you're at work, uh, you are, um, sending her text messages, uh, just because every time she calls, you answer the phone, but you're very happy. You're like, literally, hey, how you doing? Like, you're so happy instead of, what do you need? Uh, yes. What do you need? Like, you, you bring some happiness when she calls. Joy. Yeah, yeah, joy. Yeah, 100%. Listen, uh, I really appreciated this conversation. This was a highlight of my day. Yes, so I, I, I'm, I was really fortunate to get to have it with you today. I want to make sure though, before we go, that you tell people how to find you so they can connect with you, get to know you. Folks, message Pesa. Like, just send him a message. Say, hey, I appreciate your words. You know, connect with him. So thank you. So they can— if they are on Instagram, they can always find us at Live— we are@liveyourbestmarriage, which is L-I-V-E Your Best Marriage, if you're on Instagram. Or if you want to come to our website, which is the same, Live Your Best Marriage, liveyourbestmarriage.com. And for listeners, if you want to see what the outside pressure may be weakening, weakening your marriage, the teamwork that you have in your marriage, you can take the free United Front quiz at our website. It takes like 2 to 3 minutes, and from it you'll you'll be able to see where the pressure is coming from and how it's weakening your marriage and what you can do about it. Beautiful. I, like I said, I said it a few times now, but I appreciate you. It was a great conversation. And I hope you have an incredible rest of your day. Put your phone down and go see your children. So thank you. Thank you. Thanks for tuning into The Adaptive Mindset. If you found value in today's episode, don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who's ready to thrive in the digital age. Stay secure, stay adaptable, and I'll see you next time.