Welcome to the Adaptive Mindset. I'm Brett Gallant, a cybersecurity thought leader and founder of Adaptive Office Solutions. Here, we don't just talk tech, we unlock the strategies, stories, and mindset shifts you need to stay secure, lead boldly, and thrive in a digital world. Let's get started. Welcome back to the Adaptive Mindset. I'm really pleased to have with me today a man who has walked the walk in leadership from the halls of Intel to the virtual classrooms of five universities. Dr. Kevin Gazzara is the CEO of Magna Leadership Solutions, positive intelligence coach, and the author of The Leader of Oz. With more than three decades of experience guiding leaders and transforming teams, Kevin helps individuals not just lead, but lead with purpose, clarity, and mental fitness. Let's unpack how you built and highly intelligent teens ditch the saboteurs and create a leadership brand that outlasts titles and job descriptions. Welcome Well, Brent, thanks so much for sharing me with your listeners. Appreciate that. Absolutely. Kevin, I wanna go to your origin story for a moment. Okay. And I'd like to have you take us back What made you leave corporate America after 18 years at Well, I had a personal goal, Brett, to retire at 50. And I was able actually to retire at 51. I could have retired at 50 and I hung on an extra year. But my goal was to be able to start the next phase of my life. And I was very, very fortunate, spent 29 years in the corporate world. 10 years with Transamerica Corporation, and then my last 18 plus years with Intel. And I did a lot of different jobs at Intel. I came in as a product engineer, product marketing manager, I was a general manager, but ultimately I found that I love teaching. And I didn't tell when you get to a certain management level, you have to teach 40 hours a year. So everybody was expected to facilitate classes on meetings and efficiency and goal setting and productivity. And we had lots and lots of classes, but I really found a passion there. And, you know, even though my background is in engineering, I kind of switched over to the kind of the soft side on management and leadership. I really found that passion. And the last six years before I retired in 2007, I was managing Intel's management and leadership residential programs. We used to take managers off site for a full week. And then we used to do 2,500 managers and leaders in 10 different countries each year. And when I retired from Intel to start up Magna Leadership Solutions, my consulting company, with my two colleagues from Intel. We had just finished training, not personally, but we had just finished training our 40,000th manager. So I got pretty good at that. I got a lot of passion on it. But what ultimately I wanted to do at 50 was to go give back and work with, you know, small to medium-sized companies, you know, didn't have $10 million budgets to spend and really help them develop their leaders. And that's what we've been doing. And the great thing is, is everything's been every year has been better than the last. and we're still doing it. So I spend most of our time, we have a program called the Leading Forward Academy. I do executive coaching, facilitating, keynote speaking, kind of a portfolio kind of guy. So I get to do a variety of things. Every day is exciting and I love what I do. I can't just imagine not getting up and Yeah, you certainly are a man who has put in the reps, you know, with all that great background that you had, and you're doing something now, you're living, you know, doing something that gives you energy and it fulfills you. which is a great, great place to be in life. I think a lot of people need to really remember So, well, and I would say a lot of people need to recognize it. And I think people have this unrealistic expectation of what kind of being an entrepreneur is, right? That it just seems, you know, I've had, I'll have usually a call maybe once a month or so where somebody has been downsized or someone I know, and they say, hey, I want to do what you're doing. Can you just hire me? You know, I'll work that one day a month and charge five or $10,000 a day. I'll have the other 29 days off during the month. And it doesn't work that way. It doesn't quite work like that. So, you know, being an entrepreneur has been wonderful from the perspective of maintaining control of your time, you know, picking and choosing what you want to do. And at the same point in time, you know, what I think most people don't realize is it's an 80-20 thing that, you know, 80% of my time I end up kind of networking and doing business development and the other 20% of the time I get to do you know, what I truly have that passion for. The good news is, you know, my background, when I did my undergrad work, I did it in engineering and business and in marketing. So I like the marketing stuff. I like the techie stuff, you know, and that feeds kind of my passion Absolutely. And you're in one of those buckets right now, speaking with all of us today, serving and helping people. So I want to ask you, what sparked the birth of Magnet Leadership? And what was the scariest part about leaving corporate and going? You touched on it a bit, but what really sparked it? Well, so I am a long term planner. I find most people are not. And the advantage I had was I had a great mentor and coaches at Intel. You know, one of my mentors was, I had for many years, was a woman by the name of Cecilia. And I had a 10-year plan, you know, at 40, I knew that I wanted to retire at 50. And I saw too many of my friends and colleagues or people that I knew that were waiting till 65. And, you know, at that point in time, it was just a little bit too late to do the things that they love to do. You know, they got to, you know, work on the house and do some golfing and so forth. But they really didn't get to to Yeah. Yeah. So so I had this expectation or desire to to not do that. Right. So at 50, I could do that. So we put a plan together. We stayed on track. You know, I said, hey, what do you want to do? I said, you know, I want to teach. I want to develop, I want to coach, I want to help people, I would like to teach at a university level. And at that point in time, I had, you know, a bachelor's and a master's degree. And she said, well, you know, probably if you want to teach at a university, and I've taught at actually six different universities. over the past 25 years, you probably need a doctoral degree. So let's put that in the 10 year plan. And I went back to school, I think I was 44 at the time, when I went back to school to do my doctorate, and then finish that. And then when I got out, and you know, we had this plan to create a firm. We didn't call it Magna Leadership, obviously, 10 years before. But we I had this idea to do that and do that with two very good colleagues of mine who were at Intel. So one, I didn't want to do it alone. And two, I wanted to make sure I did it at a time where it's financially stable. I mean, I think that's I think that's the other thing I have found when I'm coaching people you know, to develop their consulting business or coaching, consulting entrepreneurial business, that I'd say a good portion of them don't come prepared financially to be able to make that transition. You know, you know, we, I had, worked with lots of, I probably interviewed probably a dozen different entrepreneurial firms that before I started Magnet Leadership, and I wanted to find out what was important to them. And they all pretty much told me the same thing is you have to be able to be capitalized for at least 18 to 24 months before you're big your big project comes in or that check that's going to sustain you. And if you're not willing to at least invest, things come in prior, just look at those as windfalls, but you may need to invest that. And And most people that I get that monthly call with, like, oh, I got downsized, let me go do what you want to do, or I'm thinking about being an entrepreneur. Then one of the first questions I have is, how much money do you have to handle your fixed and variable expenses? And most of them will say a couple of months. And then I say, go look for a corporate job. So That's sort of the exception to the rule because when you first start, there's a lot of blood and sweat and the checks don't Exactly. And I still remember when we started Magna, we were a virtual team. So Dr. Ali Lakhani was in Sacramento. Marlene Lundy was up in Portland. I was in Phoenix. And, you know, one of the things that we we had this we had calls on a regular basis. And I remember our 18 month call where we all everybody on the phone was. Well, I was the optimist on the phone. Marlene and Natalie were like, hey, was this a good idea? Because we had gotten a few jobs, but they wasn't sustainable. And I said, hey, trust the process. And sure enough, at 19 months, a month later, the big, big, big PO came in. And that sustained us for several years. And we just build upon that, and it got us started. But we had Yeah, there's certainly the blood, sweat and crying and tears and, and just the grind that they say, no one sees that. No one sees that. Like, uh, unless you're, unless you're an entrepreneur, the late nights, the, the uncertainty sometimes, like when you're first getting Yeah, you have to be able to deal with the highs and the lows, right? And most people like the highs. They don't like the lows. And particularly if the lows are for an extended period of time, you get into this mental mindset, this fixed mindset rather than a growth mindset. And once you're there, it's a Yeah, I remember it's my journey. I had that other mindset, but now it's one of growth and abundance and serve. I had it the other way around, but it's nice when you've gone through the valleys and know that, yeah, I'm at a good place, but I know there's going to be another valley. but ride it out and keep working on it and the grit and the grind and keep going at it, having that mindset. I wanted to ask you, the biggest mistake, what's the biggest mistake you see managers make when they're Well, you know, I think the first thing I'd say, Brett, is that there are certain people that, should be managers and leaders. And there are other people that really should be, stay individual contributors. And one of the challenges, particularly in smaller firms, is in order to move up, you have to take a management position. You have to take on more responsibility. And there's many brilliant, brilliant people, scientists, engineers, you know, whatever that are really good at their job. They love their job. The thing is, is it doesn't give them that financial trajectory that they're that they're looking for. So they take a job, you know, for financial reasons and then end up really being bad at it. So so I'd say that's the first thing is, is you really have to evaluate, you know, One, do you have an interest in leading or managing people? I mean, technically you wanna manage tasks and you lead people, right? Do you have the ability to do that? And the best managers and leaders usually have a combination of both. You're usually not just a manager or just a leader, because I don't think many corporations have that on any of the business cards these days is, you know, leader of, it's always manager or vice president, so forth. So you have to have, you have to do a little bit of the management stuff, which is more task-related, and you need to do a lot more of the leadership stuff, which is relationships. I did a little bit of research on you, and you teach that great leaders are made, not Absolutely. Yeah. And I'd say, you know, Dr. Lakhani and I, in fact, when Dr. Lakhani was working on his doctoral research, he did an awesome study that looked at about 1200 managers and leaders around the world. 47 different countries. And we found out, or he found out something really, really interesting was that, you know, the number one thing that you can do to be recognized as a great leader is to become a great communicator. That's the number one thing. And it translates into every culture, into every country around the world, that it's always at right at the top, right? So if you can become a better communicator, which means, you know, doing empathetic listening, which was just thinking of that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's listening. It's responding in respectful ways. It's holding people accountable. It's developing relationships. You know, I always told I told whenever I got a new staff at Intel, I always told them two things. One is I always say is I I don't really care if you like me, it's important that you respect me and my decisions. If you like me in addition to that, that's a bonus, but I won't give up the respect piece and so forth. And I'm going to give you every chance to challenge me. I want you to challenge me. But it's really important that we develop a trust relationship. you know, building that trust is so important. I think that's one of the things managers and leaders fail at doing. And there's lots and lots of different ways to build trust, you know, communicating, listening, taking an interest in them as a person. One of the things I did at Intel, which I think was critical, is I had two one-on-ones every month with my staff. depending on the staff size, it ranged in different hours. But the first thing was I'd have a performance one on one, you know, talk about how you're doing, what resources do you need? How can I help, you know, hold you accountable, hold yourself accountable? That's the first thing. And the second one on one, which was completely independent, was a development one on one. And it wasn't about the work that they were doing. It was about developing them. and their brand, their leadership brand, right? As a person, and some of the things could include things like music lessons or graphics design, or I didn't care. I wanted to make sure that they felt like I was giving them the opportunity to develop, because ultimately that kind of stuff comes back into the workplace. And if you can split those two, because typically what we find is when we go into organizations and help them, particularly when there's a trust problem is when we ask them, do you do one-on-ones? And they say, yeah, of course we do one-on-ones with people. I said, what do you do on the one-on-ones? And they mentioned a whole bunch of tactical things, holding them accountable, making sure people are on schedule, those type of things. What are the problems? But there's very, very little, might be a little piece in development in there. And if you have a one hour one-on-one, 55 minutes on stuff that you're screwing up on, and then five minutes on how do I make you better, just sends a subliminal message of you're not valuable. So we said, split them up, do a half hour on one, never do the two together, and then a half hour on the other, I think a lot of people miss that. I was a lot like that. What I've been doing now, ever since I've been inspired and challenged from one of my coaches is to have those one-on-ones with your team. But I've gone as far as, I didn't realize I didn't really understand or appreciate what my team's goals were, not just their professional goals, but actually know what they want personally in life. And oh man, when I started asking that to really understand my team, it's helped me so much as a leader. I'm not gonna pretend that I'm doing it perfectly, but knowing what some of their personal goals Yeah, and I did that I think the one of the things that was important when we when we teach and I coach other executives or leaders doing this is. is always allow the other person to maintain control of the conversation. And if they like to talk about, I always encourage people to talk about their personal and professional aspirations. And if the personal stuff comes in there, fantastic. If they don't Yeah, so true. You can't open up a faucet that doesn't want to be open. So I wanted to talk to you about positive intelligence. You're a positive intelligence coach. So what exactly is mental fitness and why does that matter in Yeah, so when I had done, you know, a lot of my doctoral research, my doctoral research, you know, my doctorate's in organizational leadership, and it was focused around productivity, motivation, and engagement. That's what I did my dissertation on, looking at different concepts of structuring jobs and also creating, you know, how do you get into the into flow, right? And for those that are not familiar with flow, it's you know, when you get into that situation where you have a balance, the right balance of challenge and skill, you get into the zone. And, you know, the easiest way to tell whether you're in flow or not is the element of time is severely distorted. You look up at the clock and it's midnight and you swear it's still nine o'clock. Like, where did those three hours go? That's in flow. And one of the things to get into flow is you really need to have a lot of heavy duty self-awareness. And this comes from, work that was originally done by Daniel Goleman in emotional intelligence, you know, Martin Seligman on positive intelligence, David Rock on neural leadership. So lots and lots of people approaching things in very, very different ways. And one of the gentleman from Stanford, a guy by the name of Shirzad Shamim, wrote a book called Positive Intelligence. And at a very high level, what he has done is he's essentially taken lots of the work from all those people I just mentioned and pulled them all together into a single operating system. I think the biggest challenge I had you know, trying to use some of the emotional intelligence assessments and teaching emotional intelligence, because it can be taught right around, you know, awareness of self, awareness of others, and control of self and control of others, is is that it's the work that had been done was very descriptive, right? So lots of interesting information, but what do I do next? And, you know, that process was missing. And then what Shahzad has done is he's taken all of that, pulled it all together and creating this operating system, actually runs on your smartphone or your computer. or whatever. And it's about building kind of mindfulness into your practice, but it's really understanding what he calls your 10 saboteurs. And I can share this quickly if you'd like to. Yeah, I'd love to. Yeah. Yeah. So, the good thing is, there's an assessment if people want to go to pqtrainingandcoaching.com, you can get a quick start guide from me. And you can go and take the positive intelligence assessments for free. Well, and he offers that through the through the site. The quick start guide will help you kind of navigate it so you can find them quickly. And what's what she says is, you know, we have two brains. We have the sage brain and we have the saboteur brain. And the way we're wired is, if you do a lot of neuroscience work, you recognize that, you know, things that are, if I experience something negative, I have to have three positive things to offset it. That's just the way we're wired, you know. you know, just as humans. And once you, the first thing you need to know is you need to know, you know, from your saboteur brain, what's causing your brain to go negative or view thing or observe things or interpret things that are negative. And he says there's 10 saboteurs, there's this overarching saboteur, which is the judge, which is always kind of judging you. You are judging yourself, right? And then there's the controller, right? The controller saboteur, where you have to have everything. You have to feel like you have your hands in everything. Lots of challenge for executives, right? Because lots of them have the controller saboteur. You have a hyper, achiever saboteur where you want to do more and more and more and more and everything as soon as you get to that one goal it's never enough and your hyper achiever saboteur uh if that gets that gets turned on and everybody has a different range the assessment will give you a zero to ten on these and typically you want to focus on the ones that are the the top top three uh you have your wrestle saboteur uh which is you're always kind of worrying about you know coulda woulda shoulda type of thing. You have your stickler, which is paying attention to the details, minutiae, over and over and over to the point where you get into analysis paralysis. You have the pleaser saboteur, where you're trying to make everybody happy, and you're usually taking way too much on your own. You're not delegating or pushing back. You have that hypervigilant saboteur. It's that checking in all of the time. Managers would call it micromanagement. So you have the hypervigilant. Then you have the avoider saboteur. I don't see too many senior managers having an avoider saboteur. I see a lot of young managers, particularly, they don't want to upset the apple fort, so they just do it themselves or they avoid it until it explodes. And then you have the victim, right, where basically, you know, it's their problem, it's not mine, it's causing that. And then you have the last one, which is my number one, which is a hyper rational saboteur, right, where the brain believes that you can turn everything into a rational discussion. And, you know, and I think that comes from my engineering background, where I believe everything can be turned into numbers, The big challenge with the hyper-rational saboteur is one of the things that we know is, and I always like to think of the brain as, you know, you have this big wall around the top of our brain and in the center of our brain is our rational brain. And the big challenge with people, particularly like myself, who have that hyper, a high hyper-rational saboteur that's always there, is our tendency is to try to have a discussion with the other person, particularly in a deep conflict. that's rational and until you can get the emotional wall down right you know you're trying to shoot over the wall or knock down the wall or blast through the wall you're spending all your time and effort trying to get through that emotional wall to get what's up and you're using rational conversations, until that emotional walls down, you're just wasting lots and lots of energy. So the thing that I've learned as a positive intelligence coach, and I've been doing this four or five years now, has been is you take a breath, you step back, you try to do some really empathic listening. figure out what's going on, because a lot of the times that pushback has nothing to do with the issue at hand. It might have to do with something else, you know, something else is happening in the corporation or the organization or a lot of times at home with their teenage kids. You know, teenage kids seem to come into conversations quite a bit, challenges they're having. And if you can't get them to kind of lower the wall and push it aside momentarily, Boy, it's just painful. It's kind of like putting lipstick on a pig. You know, the two reasons you don't want to put lipstick on a pig is one, they don't have any lips, and two, just has a tendency to annoy the pig. So Yeah, I don't recommend that or another way of saying it, herding cats. Yeah. Exactly. So if you can do that, and if you either go through, there's a six-week program to figure out how do you manage your saboteurs. But if you just get the book, or if you just go onto Amazon, and you type in positive intelligence, I think you can buy the book for about 15 bucks. Plus, if you go to the site, there's just a ton of great information there. And the book has details on every saboteur. Once you know yours, you can go right to that saboteur, and it'll give you several pages of of, you know, how to recognize it, the positive that it provides, the negative that it provides, how to deal with it, and how to eventually, you know, get it so it's, it's a, you don't want to get rid of them, you just want to be able to quiet them enough so Yeah, I was listening to you, reading, sharing all of them, and I heard so many of those that But we have, most of us have many, some people have all of them. I probably out of the 10, I've probably got seven. I have several zeros, which is a good thing. I find many people have them all, and some will have two or three nines and tens, and other people have lots of fives and sixes, but they'll have fives and sixes at the top, but they'll still have ones and I've learned how to manage some of them and let them diminish over the years. Do sometimes And that's, it's just not productive. And Yeah, sometimes some of these perceptions are not true. So I challenge myself on some of the, what is So it's amazing what we can make up Oh, yes. Yeah. I'm like, for me, I'm a person that has overcome a number of limiting beliefs, even limiting belief from my own time. And I didn't think I'd have time to go to the gym. And I've released, when my coach asked me that question, Brett, you mean to tell me you own your own business, you can't even get to the gym? And I built accountability and I've since released 120 pounds since then. So Well, congratulations. You know, I listened to your one of your last podcasts. I remember you saying specifically is, you know, it's not about time management, right? We you know, Yeah, the priorities in our life and what really is important in life is to manage ourselves and have that time for us so we can serve better. I know a lot of people working with you get a lot of guidance and help with that with positive intelligence. I I was fortunate last year, we put 125 people, 125 managers through the PQ program. working with a large company out of Washington, D.C. They were going from staff of around 400 to 200. So there was lots and lots of concern with everyone. And we were able to the senior leader recognized that and he had gone through positive intelligence and it was life-changing for him. He said, I want all my managers to go through this because I need to have them prepared to be able to deal with all of the turmoil that we're going to create in the downsizing. And it was not downsizing because the company was doing badly, it was downsizing because they had five products that really should be one or two products and it was all about consolidation. So lots of people lost, lots of people were downsized. But the really, really interesting thing to me was when they did the evaluation for the company, the org health scores, all of the organizations came in in the 40 to 50 range. And even though his organization was cut in half, he came in around 89%. which was 87%, which is astronomical compared when you have that much turmoil. And he really attributed a lot of it to to having the managers ready, understanding their own saboteurs so that when people came in and talked to them, they didn't have the hyper-rational saboteur. I had lots of engineers there and programmers, lots of hyper-rationals. They weren't doing what I used to do years ago, is try to rationalize everything. It was listening, it was being empathetic. When people are losing their jobs or have the potential to lose their jobs, You have to be able to get to the point where you're having a human conversation because the rational detailed conversations will come separately, but you No, you have to start empathetically in those situations for sure, especially with so much change and emotional moments. Yeah. Which the truth is sad, but the health of the organization needed to make Yeah, well, and the nice thing was is, you know, he did a fantastic job of getting everybody's buy-in, right? Like, this makes sense. You know, we shouldn't have all these competing products, you know, that have all this overlap. We need to consolidate them. And when you consolidate them into, you know, two product lines instead of five product lines, you're gonna see a lot of redundancy. And that redundancy is, you know, you know, you have to be profitable, right, to stay in business, No, I know, and I've learned that over the years, and there were times where I wasn't, but I've learned one thing important, there's no crime in profit. It's the fuel that keeps your business healthy and it's responsible to make sure you're sustainable for your employees and your community and their families. Yeah. And we're not talking about gouging. No. Respectful that keeps the company healthy. Yes, exactly. Yes. You've taught at five universities, like you shared earlier. What do you hope your legacy is I would say, you know, my legacy from either from the university perspective or from clients I've had or clients, yeah. Or people that I've taught, you know, when I was at Intel, you know, If people can, where I, if I've made one change for them, where it's helped redirect them in a positive way, where they've really kind of been more forward thinking and then backward thinking, And there's a lot of people that, you know, hopefully I've touched off people that I've made that difference, whether it's academically or whether it's in business. You know, I think, you know, I'm going to be happy to kind I see it now. Happy, smiling and fulfilled. What's one piece of advice you give to every young leader you Well, there's a lot of pieces of advice. I think the one thing that I would say where I find most leaders fail is they don't take the opportunity to leverage or utilize the talent that they receive in their staff, right, that there's a, you know, particularly people that haven't studied or not. I deal with a lot of technical organizations and a lot of, you know, engineers or software designers or programmers or whatever have been incredibly good at their job, you know, for 10 or 15 years. And then one day you walk in and it's like, OK, you're great at doing programming. Here you go. Here's a staff to 10 people ready to go. Right. One of the things that I have found with them, the kind of the ones that struggle the most have this belief that they have to In fact, this comes up with people that have the controller saboteur. They have to own everything. They have to do everything. All the decisions have to be with them. They can't take input from others. And I think that is the kiss of death. So my recommendation is listen to other people. Don't be afraid to delegate. Right, you know, in a situation where you have another programmer that has specific knowledge and you're the leader and they're an individual contributor, let them lead, right? It'll make them feel good. It'll make you look good. And one of my goals always was that I had a lot of fluidity for my staff. Two things I told my people on their first day when they came in, whether it was internal or external transfer. First thing I would tell them is, I don't want you working for me 18 months from now. I want you to start thinking today, how can we get you an equivalent or a better job? And then two, I want you to think at a leadership level. So I want you to be able to say to yourself, you know, what will Kevin do or what will this leader, that next level up do? And if you can do that, in 18 months from now, you'll be ready for that next challenge. If you are still thinking at the current level, you're not going to get there. And we'll give you some courses and coaching and mentoring and lots of tools to be able to get you there. It's not just ready, go. And if you can do that and you, you know, the best leaders really develop more leaders. And if you can do that, so you're, I always wanted to be as dispensable as possible, as quickly as I could get. If people think, oh, well, you don't really need Kevin there. There's five other people could do his job. That gave me more opportunities. And, you know, I think as one of your other guests said in one of your July podcasts was it's about self-leadership. You have to build that that self-confidence. And if you're worried, hey, if anybody else can replace me, you know, I'm in jeopardy, then you've got a Yeah, 100%. Picking up on that, it reminds me of what I've adopted from scouting, and I really empower and try to do this with my own team. In scouting, we say, train I was never a scout, and what I would say that absolutely follows all of the things that I would say are important, and the Exactly. I had the great privilege of working with another Scoutmaster in another city, and watching what he does with the youth, taking that, I observed it, I started adapting it more intentionally with my team. Because when you train the youth, and then you trust them, and then you empower them to lead. It's the exact same thing we should be doing with our teams, our leaders, future leaders. And I think if you do it early on, you know, I wasn't a scout. scout leader, both of my daughters played competitive softball, and I could see that, you know, that's really those kind of things, getting your kids involved there, you know, where they can learn what good leadership is, good management, the importance of team, the importance of of allowing others to be as equally successful as you. And I think that's something that can be taught, but it has to be taught through experience. It's not just taught by reading it. Right, you have to live it, experience it. Try something a little different I haven't done before. You're my guinea pig. Okay, let's give it a shot. Rapid fire wrap-up questions season. Okay. What's a belief about leadership you no longer hold? That people have to be born with it. What's I take a walk every morning and spend the first 12 minutes in mindfulness or meditation type, not thinking about anything else. Love it. What's one book you've gifted most? Other than my own book, The Leader of Oz, that's probably the number one. There's a close second is Okay. And where can listeners go to connect and learn from you, including So if you want my business website, you can go to magnaleadership.com, M-A-G-N-A, magnaleadership.com. If you're interested in my consulting practices, there's a link in my business one as well, but you can go to coachsultants, coachsultants.com, that'll get you to my website. to my coaching practice. And then if you want to connect with me, please send me an email. Send it to Kevin at MagnaLeadership.com. And I'll send you a link to my calendar. And here's my promise to you. If you want to talk about anything that we talked about on this podcast or about leadership or management or being an entrepreneur, I'd love to talk to you about that. My promise is you will get absolutely no sales pitch. I will not sales pitch you. That if I can help other people, I've been fortunate enough that I've made my financial bid, so I'm very comfortable. If I can help you and point you in a direction, great. If we wanna work together, even better, That's an incredible offer. So kind of you, Kevin. For those of you, for everyone listening, I want you to think for a moment of one, three people that you know in your network that needs to hear this message from Kevin, what he shared. I'm sure there's one to three people that you can think of right now that can benefit from everything Kevin has shared with us, because this episode was packed. with so many actionable items you can do, improve your life, your leadership, please share. That would be one of the best ways you could thank Kevin and myself. And Kevin, I want to thank you. I really appreciate having you today and getting to know you. You're an incredible gift to be able to speak